Perfectionism

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Natalie Moutafis: 

Hi everyone and welcome back to isPodcast, ISV's Show for schools and the wider community. I'm Natalie Moutafis. On today's episode, Mike Broadstock talks with clinical and forensic psychologist David Cherry about the difference between a healthy drive to achieve and perfectionism and how parents and teachers can support young people when the need to ‘get it right’ goes too far. 

Michael Broadstock: 

Teachers and parents want their children to do well. We ask them to do their best and tell them that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing properly, but sometimes the need to get it right can go too far. I spoke with psychologist David Cherry about how we can help students when healthy high standards turn to perfectionism.  

Please note that the discussion I had with David is of a general nature; if you have concerns about your child, please seek professional advice.  

Welcome to isPodcast, David Cherry. 

David Cherry:  

Thanks for asking me to do this. 

Michael Broadstock: 

Please tell us a bit about yourself. 

David Cherry: 

I'm a clinical and forensic psychologist. I've been working for over 40 years. I had a private practice as a psychologist for 25 years, and during that time I worked a lot with children, young people, and families in relation to the distress, upsetness, behaviour and emotional problems, and other difficulties of children and young people. I also have worked extensively with schools in helping children who had a variety of different difficulties integrate into the school environment. 

Michael Broadstock: 

So, we have you on the show to talk about perfectionism. What is perfectionism? 

David Cherry: 

Usually, there's three different types of perfectionism, although if you look at the literature on perfectionism, they (authors, writers, researchers) go into a variety of different sorts, but generally, people talk about self-oriented perfectionism, which is having unrelenting standards. So the belief that you should always do everything perfectly or a particular thing often around schoolwork or aesthetic ability or bodily appearance, doing a particular thing perfectly. So that's one form of perfectionism.  

Another form of perfectionism is called socially oriented perfectionism, and that's an over-concern about the opinion of significant others, which could be parents, it could be your partner, it could be your peer group, it could be your teachers or even people in the wider community.  

A third form of perfectionism, which isn't spoken about as much as the others, but is still very important, is that over-oriented perfectionism, which is being incredibly and unhelpfully and sometimes pathologically demanding in relation to the behaviour of others. So other people should behave in the way that the perfectionistic person wants or believes everyone should behave. 

Michael Broadstock: 

And how does it develop? Is it something that comes and go or does it grow? 

David Cherry:  

Look, I think there's a variety of ways that it can come to be. I think there's possibly a small group of people who are just born with that perfectionistic bent. 

Michael Broadstock: 

So, it's like a personality trait? 

David Cherry: 

Yeah, a personality trait. They may be very fastitidious, they may be very tidy, they may be very driven. There's some people who are born with that characteristic or trait.  

Another way it can develop is where, for example, you've got a child or young person who's got a very particular gift or skill and their parents become ambitious for them and they make unreasonable demands on them.  

A third way it can develop is where a young person can have a difficulty in their life, which could be separation, or a parent might die, for example, and the child develops a belief at a very young age, if only I'd been different, if only I'd been better, this wouldn't have happened to me. So they'll strive to be, in their eyes, better and perfect. 

Michael Broadstock: 

Are some people more susceptible than others? 

David Cherry: 

I think that those people who may be more susceptible to others are those who are generally more anxious and eager to please. I also think it's important to recognise that in society at the moment, there's an over-emphasis on external achievement.  

So looking good, doing well, achieving in a variety of ways – that could be occupationally, it could be by having an attractive partner, It could be athletic skills, it could be being spiritually developed – and that emphasis on achievement is making it more likely that many people will develop a perfectionistic style or a perfectionistic streak, but also that the more vulnerable people will develop a perfectionistic style. 

Michael Broadstock: 

There's a popular article on our website for parents about perfectionism in girls. Are girls particularly susceptible, do you think? 

David Cherry: 

I don't think they're any more susceptible than boys. I think girls may be more willing to talk about what's happening with them emotionally. I think boys, not all boys, but many boys will keep things inside. I think it's true in many circumstances that boys and girls may be perfectionistic about different things.  

So, girls may be more likely to be perfectionistic about their body, their looks, and also school achievement. Boys may be more likely to be perfectionistic about athletic achievement and possibly how they look. And that's not to say that it's only boys that are perfectionistic about athletic achievement or look, boys and girls can be perfectionists about the same things.  

One interesting thing is that it is predominantly boys, although this may have changed in the recent days, predominantly boys who have what some people have called a need for muscularity. So, I think it's no more prevalent between boys and girls. I think it may be more evident in girls because girls tend to be more willing and/or able to talk about their emotional difficulties. 

Michael Broadstock: 

It's interesting you mentioned body image because when I think of perfectionism, I usually think of it in the academic context. Does it affect children in terms of eating disorders and so on? 

David Cherry: 

Yeah, most definitely. Yeah, and a very concerning aspect of perfectionism is if a person is seeking assistance for another difficulty, which could be depression, anxiety, eating disorders, having trouble organising themselves with their work, for example, perfectionism may make it harder for them to actually get assistance because they'll sometimes strive to be the perfect patient, which means that they'll hide their difficulties because they don't want to be a burden on others.  

So, perfectionism is pernicious, perfectionism is sneaky, and sometimes people who are perfectionistic or hide it because of the shame associated with not achieving the things that they would like to achieve, while recognising at the same time that their drivenness is unhelpful and unhealthy. 

Michael Broadstock: 

It's interesting, it sounds like it's a reflection in a negative way of aspects that we value that are quite positive. There's a bit too much of a good thing. 

David Cherry: 

Absolutely. And so, you've brought up a really interesting issue there, which is whether or not it is a bit too much of a good thing. And certainly, people talk about positive perfectionism and negative perfectionism.  

So, the positive aspects of perfectionism if they exist is a certain desire to achieve and a striving and a conscientiousness. So that's the upside if there is such a thing as positive perfectionism. The downside for some people is even when they achieve something, they might say, well, 'Look, yes, I got ninety-nine percent. Why didn't I get a hundred?' Or 'I got a hundred per cent why didn't I get 101 per cent?'  

So, the problem with perfectionism is that where people are thoroughly perfectionistic, they aren't satisfied with anything. And some writers more recently have talked about, rather than thinking about perfectionism, thinking about optimalism, getting the optimal outcome for your efforts while not breaking yourself in a physical sense, in a spiritual sense, or an emotional sense. 

Michael Broadstock: 

When I think of perfectionism, I usually think about that job interview joke. ‘What's your weakness? Oh, I'm a perfectionist’. And it's like even suggesting that you suffer from perfectionism is somehow saying that you think you're perfect. Do you think people don't take it seriously because of that name? 

David Cherry: 

I think people may not be aware that they're perfectionistic because unfortunately, presently in our society, perfectionism is rewarded. So, I think people may not be aware.  

Also, if people become aware that their perfectionism is distressing them or making their life harder, they may experience at least some people such a strong sense of shame about that and the belief that they don't deserve to be assisted or helped that they won't seek help. 

Michael Broadstock: 

Yeah, I remember when I was young, my parents took me up to Sovereign Hill and I thought it was amazing. So when I got home, I decided for myself I was going to do a personal project about gold, and I got out a big sheet of paper and started drawing my project, and it wasn't quite right, so I threw it out and then I got some sheets of paper and I started again. And over the course of afternoon, I must have filled a wastepaper basket with all these attempts trying to get it perfect because it was so important to me. It sort carried through to my schoolwork – I was never happy with my handwriting, my essays were covered in liquid paper – but I wouldn’t have thought of myself as perfectionistic. 

David Cherry: 

Things that help people that are perfectionistic of any age, but we're talking about children and young people is firstly recognising that it may be an issue or concern.  

Now, if you've got a three-year-old or a four-year-old or a five or six-year-old who's perfectionistic, they're not going to recognise that. Yeah. They're just going to say, "Well, this is the way I am." So depending upon the age of the person, obviously person's got to recognise they've got a perfectionistic streak, and then understand the difficulties that might be leading them to experience. 

Michael Broadstock: 

What are some warning signs that someone might be struggling with or at risk of perfectionism? 

David Cherry: 

So with children and young people say in the school environment, checking and changing work. So just as you spoke about constantly doing the same thing repeatedly and being frustrated because it's not perfect.  

Also procrastinating, just not starting things: ‘I'll do that later’, but then it never gets started or when it does get started, it's done in a rush. So procrastinating may be a sign of perfectionism, also having inflexible rules and standards.  

So if you spoke about that in relation to your own writing, boys tend to be messier than girls. That's not always true. The frustration for many boys is they can't quite like girls or the way they write isn't rewarded, for example. So they may develop inflexible standards about, well, it must look like this in order to be worthwhile. So not valuing the process, not valuing the doing it something only focusing on the so-called perfect outcome. 

Another indicator of perfectionism can be acute distress, which seemed disproportionate to the event that occurs when a person fails to meet a standard either in the eyes of others or more particularly in their own eyes. And in addition, a type of competitiveness either with self, ‘I must do better, I've got to run faster this time’ or have competitiveness with others either in one area, which could be academically, it could be aesthetically, it could be around how the person's body looks, or in nearly every area of life.  

So, there's some of the things that I'd say may be an indicator that a person, a young person or child, or a young person is perfectionistic. 

Michael Broadstock: 

What are your tips for teachers of students who are demonstrating or showing perfectionist behaviours? 

David Cherry: 

Tips for teachers are things like praising effort over results. If you're in an art class and the only pictures that are put up on the board are by the two people who are artistically gifted, you're going to discourage the artistic aspirations to the people who aren't necessarily gifted. So praising effort over results.  

Also emphasising realistic goals. We all have different strengths. We all have different weaknesses we can only achieve within certain constraints. So, making sure that the person of any age has realistic goals. 

And breaking down long-term goals into a series of short-term goals and helping the person understand that in order to achieve anything, you need to go through a certain process. So people who are perfectionistic, sometimes jump too quickly towards the goal and don't plan a process to get towards the goal. Also, frequently they don't value or focus on the goals, they don't learn the things that they could along the way. So, here's some of the things that I'd say for teachers. 

Michael Broadstock: 

So, what can parents do? 

David Cherry: 

Parents can help children by praising them for effort, not necessarily for outcomes. So that's one important thing that parents can do. A second really important thing that parents can do is modelling good self-talk.  

So, the parent who makes mistake might say,' Oh, that's frustrating, that's annoying. I'll try and do better next time,’ rather than say ‘That's catastrophic and that's the end of the world’ and throw a mini tantrum when they don't get what they want. So that's one very powerful thing that parents can do.  

A secondary powerful thing that parents can do is promoting the idea that we are all growing and changing and we grow and change through our efforts, and we grow and change through making mistakes and learning from them.  

So, helping the child reflect on the things that went well, the things that they didn't like about a particular activity or an event or whatever, and what they might have learned from that and what they might do differently next time. 

And also, where a child is so fixed on outcomes, encouraging them to or involving them in activities where there is no necessary outcome, cooperative play, games, doing things purely for the enjoyment of them rather than achieving something through the course of that activity.  

In addition to that, and you do this differently according to the age of the child, helping the children manage their own distress and upsetness when things aren't how they would like them to be.  

So, an unfortunate part of parenting, not for all parents, but for some parents, is that they want to take away any discomfort or distress that a child might experience. And the downside of that is children don't learn to self-regulate or manage their emotions when they do experience distress. So, children have to learn that life's sometimes difficult. I don't always get what I want and learn to manage their feelings in regard to those disappointing events or circumstances. 

Michael Broadstock: 

What would you say to the students then? 

David Cherry: 

For an older student who had a capacity to reflect, it might be helpful for them to think about their own thinking style and their own beliefs. So, for an older student, they may be helped to understand that part of perfectionism is a black-and-white thinking style: so I'm either a success or I'm a failure, I'm either liked or I'm not liked, either on the football team or the hockey team or the rowing team or part of a particular peer group, or I'm a useless individual. So one thing for an older person to help them understand that their black-and-white thinking style is contributing to their perfectionism. Secondly, helping the person recognise those behaviours that may be not helping them. 

So sometimes with a young person, say middle to upper secondary who's perfectionistic, they'll over-schedule themselves. They'll be involved in too many activities where they're striving too hard. So helping the young person understand the behaviours that may be acting against their own interests.  

And thirdly, helping the person learn the importance of making mistakes or recognise the importance of making mistakes and encourage the individual to learn how to reflect after things haven't gone the way that they would like. 

Michael Broadstock: 

Well, that's great. Thanks very much for joining us on the show, David, and letting us know all about perfectionism. 

David Cherry: 

Thank you. 

Natalie Moutafis: 

We're going to leave you with Woodleigh student Millie Daniel's A Simple Guide to Taking a Successful Journey, which won Best Performance Poem in the years five to six category at this year's student poetry competition. Our judges said Millie's impassioned eloquence ‘lifts the audience out from the familiar notion of a journey’. 

Millie Daniel: 

Meander, don't run.  

Dawdle in the flowers.  

Waltz in the rain.  

Maybe you're in a hurry, relax.  

Sing, don't talk.  

Roar with the wind.  

Paint a flower's petals.  

Maybe you are proud.  

Take my advice.  

Dream, don't think.  

Talk to the animals.  

Question everything.  

Maybe you are clever.  

Forget what you know.  

Savour the world.  

Don't let it fly by.  

Relish in a morning's dew.  

Listen to a tree whisper.  

Maybe you are oblivious.  

Pay attention.  

Be silly, not serious.  

Wave to a bird.  

Play with the river.  

Maybe you are grounded.  

Let yourself go.  

Take a risk.  

Climb a tree.  

Sleep when you find something comfy.  

Find a place where your heart goes ‘Ahhhh’ 

Where your head goes ‘Phewff!’ 

And they say ‘we made it’. 

Natalie Moutafis: 

isPodcast is brought to you by Independent Schools Victoria. It's presented by Mike Broadstock and me, Natalie Moutafis. Our podcast's theme is composed by Duncan MacLean. There are transcripts of our show with links to what we've discussed at podcast.is.education.com.au. Please follow us wherever you get your favourite podcast. While you're there, we'd love it if you could rate and review the show so more people, just like you can find us.