Mike Broadstock talks with Mark Riddiford from the Victorian Responsible Gambling Foundation about helping young people think critically about gambling, when sports betting is promoted everywhere. Shane Green chats with Psychologist Andrew Fuller about latest neurochemistry research and what it tells us about student learning and wellbeing. And Claude Debussy's Clair de Lune is played beautifully by Eric Lu from The Knox School.
Links to what we discussed:
Timestamps
Mike Broadstock talks with Mark Riddiford about gambling and young people. 0:34
Shane Green chats with Andrew Fuller about neurochemistry. 20:50
Eric Lu plays Claude Debussy's Clair de Lune 33:30
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Natalie Moutafis:
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to isPodcast, ISV's show for schools and the wider community. I'm Natalie Moutafis.
On today's episode, Shane Green talks with clinical psychologist, Andrew Fuller, about the exciting new research on neurochemistry and how it's changing the way we view learning and wellbeing in schools.
But first, Mike Broadstock talks with Mark Riddiford from the Victorian Responsible Gambling Foundation about the ways we help young people think critically about gambling in the face of ubiquitous sports betting promotion.
Michael Broadstock:
Gambling advertising. It feels like it's everywhere. And while the Victorian Government banned betting advertising within 150 metres of a school, students would have to be hermits to avoid seeing, reading, or hearing ads promoting gambling.
Research from 2021 found that close to 900 gambling ads were broadcast on free-to-air TV in Victoria every day, with the gambling industry spending over $280 million to promote their products.
Our guest today, Mark Riddiford, is the senior prevention advisor for education at the Victorian Responsible Gambling Foundation. Mark, thanks for coming on our podcast.
Mark Riddiford:
Thanks Michael, for having me, and looking forward to the opportunity.
Michael Broadstock:
You've got a background in education and I understand you're a parent yourself, so you know what I'm talking about.
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, I certainly do. Yes, I've been involved in education for some 30 plus years now in a range of roles and responsibilities, certainly within the Catholic and Independent system. And then worked with a national sporting organisation in the youth and school space, and now fortunate enough to be with the Victorian Responsible Gambling Foundation, leading their schools and youth programs.
Michael Broadstock:
So what effect is all this gambling promotion having on our kids?
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, the effect that saturation gambling advertising has on kids is that it really normalises gambling. They view gambling as a normal part of everyday life. They're rarely shown the risks of gambling and the harm that it can cause.
This generation of young people are really the first who've grown up with these pervasive levels of gambling advertising, and we're starting to see some of the effects of this. A 2016 study found that three quarters of eight to 16-year-olds thought gambling was a normal and common part of sport.
And anyone watching sport today will tell you that it's saturated with gambling ads, as you mentioned in the intro, on average, around 948 gambling ads were broadcasted daily on Victorian free-to-air TV in 2021, including 148 of these during weeknight primetime family viewing slots, that 6:00 to 8:30 PM slot.
And that's just the ads that we see on TV. We are certainly fully aware of the whole array of gambling promotions are delivered on a range of digital platforms. It's pretty hard to avoid them.
Michael Broadstock:
Even on YouTube and the sidebars of websites and so on.
Mark Riddiford:
Exactly, exactly. And we certainly know that new platforms such as TikTok are starting to get more heavily involved in gambling advertisements as well.
Michael Broadstock:
Kids of today might not even remember a time when gambling wasn't a part of sport.
Mark Riddiford:
That's right. Yeah. Look, kids now say when they go to a sporting event, they're exposed to the LED promotion, or the sounds, or the big screen, tipping competitions. If they go online, a lot of the times the sports betting odds are directly above the tipping competition.
Michael Broadstock:
And it really seems to target young people, too, with all the ‘Bet with your mates!’ stuff.
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we know a lot of sports betting ads are very effective at targeting young people. A 2018-'19 Victorian gambling and population health study found that a third of Victorian sports betters are young men aged between 18 and 24, and the participation among young women is rising as well.
But the reason why they're being exposed to levels of advertising is the actual industry spend, which is estimated around about $287 million just within Australia, and around about 61 million of that was just spent on advertising within Victoria. So, it's certainly a significant investment, which obviously relates to the level of advertising that we see. And it's really making a significant impression on the kids and young people.
Michael Broadstock:
And I guess the reason they're spending all the money is because it works. Gamblers' losses, your losses, are paying for the gambling ads.
Mark Riddiford:
That's right. And all the different ads have got all of these, what we call, particular incentives that sports betting agencies offer, such as your bonus bets, cashback offers. There's so many investments, or what I call teasers, in the form of marketing to attract new customers and encourage existing customers to place bigger and more frequent bets.
And we certainly know these ads are getting more and more effective, promotion or links to high-profile athletes, celebrities, influencers have a significant impact on young people. And again, they often depict gambling as a social activity, which really plays on young people's mind to feel that they need to fit in and be part of the social group.
So that's why, as you mentioned, ‘bet with mates’ approach to marketing is so common. And you might think to yourself, ‘Well, so what?’ Our challenge is kids are going to be exposed to gambling sooner or later. But the research clearly tells us that people who begin gambling at a young age are at a greater risk of developing gambling problems as an adult. Put it in another way, many adults with gambling problems began gambling when they were underage.
Michael Broadstock:
So aside from gambling advertising, what other factors influence young people to gamble?
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, there can be many reasons why young people gamble, but we know from our research that the biggest influences, aside from advertising, are basically family and friends and the overall gambling environment.
Gambling behaviours, beliefs, and attitudes of parents and siblings can have a real influence on young people. Studies have shown that adolescents living in households where one or both parents had gambled in the previous 12 months were around about 1.5 times more likely to gamble than those living in households where no parent was involved in gambling.
Then outside the family unit, it's probably no surprise that friendship groups play an important role in shaping their attitudes towards gambling. Gambling's often a social activity for young people, and it becomes an important part of fitting in, feeling accepted, in particular in social network groups. Again, studies have shown that young people who believe their friends are frequent gamblers, or whose friends approve of gambling, are themselves more likely to become frequent gamblers as well.
The other major influence is the gambling environment. All the ways that gambling has become a part of every day's life. Young people are exposed to sports betting advertising, but certainly, at a lot of venues that they might go with family and friends, whether it's at hotels or whatever the case may be, there's generally sometimes poker machines. And obviously, they identify the visual link and see those activities actually occurring in a social setting.
And then obviously, now, younger kids in particular are also exposed to forms of gambling or simulated gambling through social media apps and in particular in video games have a lot of gambling related components embedded within it as well.
Smartphones have really escalated the accessibility to gambling for a lot of young people. And really, our challenge is now that blurring of the lines between gaming and gambling activities. They're so interlinked in a lot of the activities within the gaming world, of which there are very little age restrictions and regulations that occur.
Michael Broadstock:
One of your fact sheets showed that one in three students were gambling.
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, that's correct, Michael. Yeah, our survey based on a 2017 study looking at feedback provided by 3,700 Victorian students really identified that correlation of gambling in secondary school students. And these findings reflected New South Wales studies in 2020 that had identified a third of 12 to 17-year-olds had gambled in the past year.
Michael Broadstock:
It's illegal for under-18s to gamble, so how are they going about it? Is it gambling apps, online gambling?
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, it's hard for us to know how many young people are using betting apps, but studies clearly have identified some have bet on sports online. There are also probably many other forms of gambling now that the younger generation are involved in. We've got particularly in e-sports and gaming that involved electronic cash and non-cash items, such as skins and virtual items, and they're very difficult to monitor and regulate as well.
And we've also got social casino games that are available to people under 18 years of age –fundamentally, gambling-like games found on social media sites – that simulate gambling. And these games usually are available to play for free, so they're not really classified as gambling and they generally provide a much easier return to the individual on winning these games than really what goes on in real life. And these games we generally find are quite addictive and normalise gambling for young kids.
Michael Broadstock:
Let's talk a bit about video games. I know that in games I've played, a lot of them have these loot boxes, and they're getting more common. They're part of the whole game experience where you can receive or you can pay for new items, new skins, new weapons, what-have-you, and they're just like pokies. There's a spinning dial, it slows down as it gets towards the weapon you want just before tipping past it. What effect are they having on kids?
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, loot boxes are a real common feature of many of the games that young people play these days. A 2020 Australian study found that of the 82 bestselling video games, approximately 62% incorporated loot boxes.
And these loot boxes, as you were sort of referring to, are like treasure chest. They contain virtual rewards of varying value, and those rewards might be weapons, or some form of game advantage, or a clothing or an avatar. And players can earn these through skillful play or they can be purchased using in-game currency, which can involve real money, utilising a credit card or paying via PayPal. So, if they sort of want to fast track their opportunity to purchase loot boxes rather than skillful play, that's one way that they can go about it.
But the things with loot boxes, they're really chance based, meaning that players a lot of times don't know what's inside of them before they're purchasing, and that's why we often describe them as a form of gambling. And loot boxes, the latest research have found, that fundamentally it can cause similar harm to that of other types of gambling platforms.
It probably leads into one of the program that we offer and our overall schools education program, the Be Ahead of the Game program. And it really recognises that gaming has many benefits for young people, it certainly provides young people with the opportunity to socialise, foster identity, learn teamwork, and really even in problem-solving skills and decision-making skills, so there's certainly a lot of positives as well.
But we also know that there are some potential risk and that's why our program is developed to truly highlight, where we can, the line between gambling and gaming has become increasingly blurred. So, we really want young people to identify the ways that game design is really evolved over recent times that involves gambling-like elements to entice them to play for longer, and eventually spend more money.
Michael Broadstock:
I know there was a game I played a fair amount of and it had these loot boxes, treasure chests, and the chests you would earn through gameplay, but you had to buy a key – with real money – to open the chest, and they were quite addictive. And I found that I'd actually spent a fair bit of money on them, and I'm an adult.
I imagine it would be difficult for a kid if they got addicted to that to necessarily pull away from it. And also, I wonder how many parents know that when they go see their child play a computer game thinking, 'Right, they're safe, they're having harmless fun’, that actually they're being exposed to this sort of risk.
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, it's a good point. And as you identified, Michael, it is that enticement, that opportunity to think 'If I play a bit longer, if I spend a bit more money, I'm going to get the prize and the reward that I'm after’.
And that's why it's important that parents are aware and have a good understanding about the programs that their son and daughter might be involved in.
And we certainly know some parents are gamers themselves and enjoy playing games with their children or by themselves, but then there's also probably a cohort of parents that have no real idea of what their children are doing with regard to the games.
And that's why we really encourage all parents and carers to find out as much as they can about the games that their kids are playing.
And one way to do that is obviously to understand the game ratings. Within Australia, there are video games classifications, just like TV shows and movies. So, these ratings are based on the presence and impact of a whole array of themes.
And gambling falls under the category of themes and is sometime referred to as simulated gambling. So, you can look on the Australian classification database for any video game title to find out its classification. So generally, it would be listed –if there's any gambling elements within the game – it would be listed as simulated gambling.
Probably the best way to understand whether a game is suitable for your actual child is, as I said, where possible, and I know sometimes we're always time poor, but sit down and watch the game, or if you need to, go to YouTube, and a lot of times there'll be a review about the game. So that could give you a quick little insight so you get a better understanding of the gameplay and the actual themes themselves.
Michael Broadstock:
You and your team run free sessions for schools and parents and teachers through your program like Money Matters, Know the Score, and When Gaming Meets Gambling. Can you tell us more about those program?
Mark Riddiford:
Yes, certainly. The Be Ahead of the Game is our gambling awareness program for young people. And really, with all of our programs, we look at the latest research that is available. And then working with our people who are involved in the education system and our delivery staff, we develop programs that we feel really engaged with school communities to allow them to understand how young people might be affected by gambling and mitigate the potential risks.
And these programs are available to all schools in Victoria, predominantly, currently programs are secondary schools space, but we're certainly looking at doing some work in the primary school space in the future.
But with regard to the students' programs, we can go in and deliver three specific programs. One's called Know the Score, which fundamentally helps students think critically about the risk of gambling and the factors that influence their attitudes towards gambling.
Then we've got our program called When Gaming Meets Gambling. This explores the blurred boundary between gaming and gambling, and help students stay safe and healthy in games.
And then we've got a program called Your Money Matters, which helps students develop financial literacy skills and knowledge, but also, we tie it in with an awareness of the financial risk of gambling.
Michael Broadstock:
And what do you tell parents?
Mark Riddiford:
Parents play such a significant role. So, we make available to schools and networks the opportunity to attend our parent and carer sessions. We've got two sessions that we offer. One is fundamentally how to talk to young people about gambling.
So, we, again, help them understand the risks of gambling among young people and the role they can play in influencing a young person's attitudes and access to gambling. And hopefully, giving them the tools and the knowledge and confidence to speak to young people.
And then our other presentation that we offer is talking to young people about gaming. So again, helping parents to have a better understanding about gaming and gambling. And again, having that link about the reality and the risk of those activities that might be occurring that their son or daughter might be involved in.
Michael Broadstock:
So, drawing from that, what can parents do, your top tips, if they learn or suspect that their child has a gambling problem?
Mark Riddiford:
Yeah, the most important approach for parents is fundamentally to have the conversation with their child about gambling. Questions such as, 'Have you noticed the betting ads on TV? Do you think betting seems risky? Do you think people have to gamble to enjoy sport? What do you think about gambling? Do your friends gamble?' Creating that informal and relaxed conversation. And you'd be surprised by the responses and the insights that your child will provide you with.
So that good conversation base, but certainly within that conversation, if you are concerned about some of the responses that your child might be providing you, we've got support networks available. So, Gambler's Help Youthline provides gambling support and advice for under 25s. It's available for anyone who's concerned about their own or someone else's gambling. It's free, it's confidential, it's available 24-7. And again, there is a telephone number 1800 262 376, or the information can be found directly from the website.
And then of course, there's Kids Helpline, which provides a whole array of support not only with regard to gambling, but is able to assist any young people to chat about anything that's a concern for them as well. And again, that can be contacted on their respective website.
Michael Broadstock:
We'll put links to that in the show description. You also have resources for educators?
Mark Riddiford:
Yes, we certainly have. We've been working quite hard in recent years to look at the ways that we can integrate gambling content within the school curriculum. And in particular, we've been redeveloping our VCE vocational major resources.
In previous years we’ve developed an array of VCAL resources, but we're converting them to the new VCE VM content. In particular, we are looking in the of literacy, numeracy and personal development skills, but we're also looking at, within the VCE itself, certainly within health and human development, we've developed a curriculum unit, and about to release a unit with regard to VCE media studies as well.
And again, we're looking at other content in the areas of health and PE that will be able to integrate some content that could be delivered within the curriculum and it aligns with the current mapping process.
Michael Broadstock:
And they'll be on your website?
Mark Riddiford:
Yes, they certainly are on our website. If you visit beaheadofthegame.vic.gov.au, all our information and programs and resources are available on that site.
Michael Broadstock:
We'll put links to all that in the show description. Thanks for being on the show with us. Great having you on.
Mark Riddiford:
Thanks, Michael. Really appreciated the opportunity and having the chat about gambling.
Natalie Moutafis:
Oxytocin, dopamine, adrenaline. They're just a few of the neurochemicals a healthy brain needs. So how can we make sure our students get the right balance? Shane Green finds out more with clinical psychologist, Andrew Fuller.
Shane Green:
Andrew, welcome to isPodcast.
Andrew Fuller:
Great to be with you, Shane. Hi, everyone.
Shane Green:
You've been telling me about some pretty exciting new research on neurochemistry and how it's changing the way we view learning and wellbeing in schools. And we thought it would be a good idea to bring that conversation to the isPodcast community, particularly educators. Can you share your insights?
Andrew Fuller:
So, there's a quiet revolution that's occurred in learning. So up until recently, we're pretty much focused on mindsets and how we create positive, resilient mindsets among young people that are positive towards learning. And the theory goes of course, that once we do that and get a resilient mindset, their repertoire behaviours becomes more constructive and that improves their lives. And that's certainly true of a fair proportion of students.
However, there's a growing number of students who aren't quite as persuadable by the adults in their world, who are perhaps a little bit more kind of world-weary about those things. And for those young people, rather than thinking about sticking with mindsets, we focus much more on the neurochemicals behind the behaviour, try and change the balance of those, which broadens the bandwidth of their behavioural repertoire.
And once they're behaving differently, we can then help them to think differently. And it's a really exciting new area of research that gives greater capacity for teachers in classrooms to change behaviour in constructive ways of their students.
Shane Green:
So, what do we know about the building blocks of learning in the brain?
Andrew Fuller:
So, the foundations of learning in the brain involve acetylcholine and brain-derived neurotrophic factor. Brain-derived neurotrophic factor is the basis of neuroplasticity. And it's the growth fertiliser, if you like, of synaptic development or connectivity in the brain.
And there are a number of things that we can do nutritionally to do that, but exercise, of course, has a powerful role, living a healthy life, having omega-3s and a number of dietary aspects that basically contribute to that.
Acetylcholine is the foundation of learning. When we learn something new, a new neural circuit is formed in our brain. And it's formed out of acetylcholine and it's then reinforced with dopamine. We'll come to dopamine probably a bit later. But basically, having that combination makes a gigantic difference.
So, the upside of acetylcholine, when you have higher levels of it, and of course there's an interaction between acetylcholine and brain-derived neurotrophic factor, or BDNF as it's known, makes new learning possible. So, when these two interact, people get smarter and their memory improves.
So, acetylcholine is also involved in the fluidity of movement and coordination of our muscles, which is why people who have Parkinson's disease often will improve when they have higher levels of dopamine and also acetylcholine.
When we get too much of it, which is rare, we get nervy and sometimes vigilant, irritable, and jumpy legs in bed, by the way. But when we have too little of it, we end up with sort of a bit flat and lowered mood.
So, we're trying then to keep the level of acetylcholine fairly well-balanced, which is not that hard to do. We know that if you have heart and blood sugar, diabetes for example, will sometimes suppress acetylcholine.
Acetylcholine comes from choline, and so eggs, nuts, dairy, soy, lima beans, seafood are generally some of the dietary sources that we use to build this building block in the brain. And your body, of course, discards the levels that it doesn't need, so it's fairly easy to keep it within normal range.
Shane Green:
Okay, so that's the basic building blocks involved. Tell us about how other aspects of the brain contribute to learning.
Andrew Fuller:
So, we know that there are, in the brain, multiple information pathways or circuits, and I've talked about those as learning strengths and that's probably a whole other conversation, Shane. But in terms of feelings, there are really only two.
One, of course, is kicked off by your amygdala, the fear centre, which creates a response of fear, stress, pain, all that kind of stuff, but also your hypothalamus and your pituitary gland are releasing hormones, and those are oxytocin and vasopressin. Oxytocin, more prevalent in females, vasopressin more in males, but both are the foundations of trust and belonging and safety.
So, these become the foundation of a student sitting in a classroom, feeling safe. And we know teachers can build this of course, for creating a safe classroom, where people get to have a go, everyone gets to be smart in their own way, for example, there are some ways of doing that.
And really helping teachers to be the antidote to the negativity that some young people experience in their lives. I've said previously that I always know when I'm with a great teacher because their eyes smile at you, they smile at their students as well.
Shane Green:
Now, adrenaline of course, is one of the stress hormones we hear a lot about. How does that fit into the whole picture?
Andrew Fuller:
Yeah, adrenaline gets a bit of bad press, really, because, well, we often think about it just in relation to the stress response and that's where it is, but it also energises us. And of course, this is our get up and go. I mean, when you are pumping with adrenaline, there's no shortage of energy around. And also, interestingly, your level of pain sensitivity is reduced.
Now, something that's really been interesting in the research is that adrenaline converts eventually in the brain into dopamine. And as we'll talk about in a moment, I suspect, dopamine's the foundation of motivation, so it's not a bad thing, but we need to regulate in classrooms.
So, where it becomes too high, teachers need to become more focused on routine, predictability and rituals. And sometimes when it's too low and students become sluggish, we need to use unpredictability. We need to get quirkier, time trial, speed thinking, those sorts of activities make a gigantic difference for that.
Shane Green:
Cortisol, the favourite stress culprit of everybody gets a good workout these days, and I think every second post on wellbeing does mention it. Can you talk a bit about that and how to manage it?
Andrew Fuller:
Cortisol also has an upside as well as a bad side. It's easy to talk about the bad side, but it activates the amygdala, so it means that that part of our kind of fear response becomes highlighted, but it also increases acetylcholine. So again, that's partly why the things that we find scary are so easy to learn really, I think. And why sometimes if you have a very fearful or difficult time, it often becomes really imprinted on our memories, sometimes way too vividly.
But basically, one of the things that it creates as a problem is distractibility. So, we know that concentration is really hard to gain and it's really easy to lose. And so, we often have to really think about modulating the levels of cortisol in a classroom, otherwise we have everyone not focused on what they should be learning. They're focused on what could go wrong, how they could fail, all that kind of stuff. And particularly if we've got perfectionistic students, that becomes incredibly problematic.
So, generally, what we can do to reduce cortisol in classrooms is sometimes switching off the lighting, dimming the room. Obviously having students feel safe. Drinking water – water reduces our levels of cortisol. And so, we want to basically make sure that our students are well-hydrated, not just because we want their brains to be well-watered, we want them also to be reducing their stress levels.
Shane Green:
Now, dopamine, we had mentioned that, and I think it's called the molecule of motivation. How do teachers modulate this in the classroom?
Andrew Fuller:
So, dopamine's released by parts of the midbrain, the substantia nigra and the ventral tegmental area, as well as the hypothalamus. And again, we see this interaction between dopamine and acetylcholine, so it's pretty essential for learning.
It's easy to tell when it's not there because people are just bored and unmotivated. Dopamine essentially shifts our life from blah to buoyant. And so, we can increase it by challenges, problem solving, quizzes, puzzles, guesstimation games, omega-3s and 6, and rhythmic movements. So, sports like handball, downball, volleyball, percussion, dancing, all that stuff increases dopamine.
Now the problem with dopamine is that when you get too much of it, you then get a major depletion of it, which is why we know when a kid plays a computer game that they really love, it soaks up all the dopamine.
And then after it, they're good for nothing, really. They've got no motivation to go and do anything. And so, we want to, in classrooms, make sure that we think about how do we give kids little wins regularly, rather than one big win. So essentially, it's trying to provide good feedback, good connection, good positivity, being able to interact socially with people for short periods, and then back to focus.
So, what we're trying then to do in classrooms is thinking about how do we kind of just give little peaks of dopamine and then back to on focus again, then a little bit, another peek and so on? So, for example, I might ask you a question. I might put something up on the board. I ask you to have a think about what you think the answer might be. I might then ask you to turn to the person next to you, tell them your answer, and then the next time I might get you to do it just by yourself. So, I'm moving between solo work, shared work. I'm starting to keep things moving around because I'm trying to modulate the amount of dopamine.
Shane Green:
Now, finally, Andrew, to everyone's favourite antidepressant, serotonin.
Andrew Fuller:
Yeah, formed in your stomach, mainly. So, 80 per cent of the serotonin, the most powerful antidepressant known to humankind, is formed in your tummy, so food is incredibly important. Food is medicine, there's no doubt about that.
So, whereas dopamine gives us the get up and go, and all the kind of adventurous spirit to go and seek things out, serotonin gives us pleasure and it gives us contentment. And one of the things that's really emerged in the research recently that I wish I'd known years ago is that serotonin ultimately converts in the brain into melatonin. Now, melatonin is the stuff that makes you sleepy.
And when I finally realised that, of course that explained something to me which I'd been puzzling about for years, that why are people, when they have a period of lowered mood, find it difficult to sleep? Ah, that's because serotonin converts into melatonin.
So, we want to then, this is probably the basis of wellbeing, really, get enough serotonin in your system, and you're a long way towards wellbeing and good learning.
Feedback, rewards, acknowledgement, mastery, building self-efficacy. Making sure that we help our kids to know that they are enough, they can get better, they can get smarter, but they're smart. And they can basically use those smarts to be successful in their world.
We live in a world that's often very questioning about self-belief, and yet we know from Albert Bandura's research, that self-efficacy is one of the best ways to increase wellbeing in schools, and also engagement and learning.
Shane Green:
Andrew, fascinating insights on the neurobiology of learning that I think will be of an enormous benefit to educators and school leaders. Thanks so much for joining us on isPodcast.
Andrew Fuller:
Thank you so much, Shane. It's been really exciting to think about and put together this research because I think it's got the great potential to really assist teachers to make their jobs much, much easier and much, much more effective, so thank you.
Natalie Moutafis:
And that's it for this episode of isPodcast. We're going to leave you with Claude Debussy's Clair de Lune, played beautifully by Eric Lu from The Knox School.
isPodcast is brought to you by Independent Schools Victoria. It's produced by Duncan MacLean and presented by Shane Green, Michael Broadstock, and me, Natalie Moutafis. Our podcast theme is composed by Duncan. There are transcripts of our show with links to what we've discussed at podcast.is.education.com.au. Please follow us wherever you get your favourite podcasts. While you're there, we'd love it if you could rate and review the show, so more people, just like you, can find us.